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MaBiWeb :: View topic - Choosing A-side doesn't remove a B-side (confirmed, solved)
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Choosing A-side doesn't remove a B-side (confirmed, solved)

 
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B_Factor



Joined: Jan 21, 2017
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Choosing A-side doesn't remove a B-side (confirmed, solved) Reply with quote

Hi, MaBi.

We're currently in setup for game 64027; P4 has chosen A-side, but P3 still has the choice of 4 B-sides. If I understand correctly the setup rules for B-sides on p.21 of the English rulebook, when a player chooses a player board, he may pick the A-side for that nation, but that nation (A- or B-side) is unavailable for the remaining players.

(Editing to add the following: the example of player-board selection given at the bottom of the B-side section seems to make my above interpretation very clear.)

I recognize that the online game doesn't necessarily have the same limitations as the physical game, but I understand this to be a choice by the game's designers to give players earlier in the turn order a greater restriction since they have the huge benefit of going first. (As a counterexample, the rules don't say that if a player wants an A-side, he should pick one of the unchosen nations, which would be possible with any player count except 5).

So, I'm therefore wondering if there was a different decision made for the online game or if you would consider this a bug as I do. Right now in my current game, my choice is made more difficult now, knowing that even P1 will have the choice of two B-sides and an A-side.

If you agree, though, that this is a bug, would it be reasonable to wait until the bug is fixed before continuing with the current game, or will this game have to continue as is regardless of a fix?

Thank you as always for your attention to these matters!
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MaBi
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Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 864
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically it's not a bug because this was my intended behaviour: I thought it was just a physical limitation of the boardgame due to the double-sided boards, no need to reproduce the limitation here. And I still think so: in Dynasties I plan to allow all the 12 new Nations, regardless of their poistion on the boards of the physical game (so it will be possible to play for example America and Arabs in the same game).
I guess we will have to ask the designer what he thinks about this. In the meantime I would suggest you to go on with the game, it may take a while to sort this out.
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MaBi
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Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 864
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I think that implementing the rule as you suggest would be awkward and counter-intuitive here online. I have a list of boards to choose and I select the Side-A: why on earth should I now remove one of the others?? It makes sense only in the context of the double-sided physical boards.
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Uniqueliy



Joined: Feb 19, 2017
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The double-sided boards are terrible, my group had to print 6 more boards to play xD. I dont mind if the designers could do this job for us with higher cost ><
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B_Factor



Joined: Jan 21, 2017
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please forgive my delayed reply; I wanted to wait until I had a full-size keyboard to reply... touchscreens are a pain, particularly for replying inline.

MaBi wrote:
Technically it's not a bug because this was my intended behaviour:

Understood; I put "Bug/design" in my subject because I recognized the possibility that it could have been your intention. :-)

Quote:
I thought it was just a physical limitation of the boardgame due to the double-sided boards, no need to reproduce the limitation here. And I still think so: in Dynasties I plan to allow all the 12 new Nations, regardless of their poistion on the boards of the physical game (so it will be possible to play for example America and Arabs in the same game).

I left out mention of Dynasties for simplicity; in this case, I would agree with you, as I have seen Rustan's comments on BGG which indicate that the double-sided nature of the expansion's boards was due to cost and not a design decision, per se.

Quote:
I guess we will have to ask the designer what he thinks about this. In the meantime I would suggest you to go on with the game, it may take a while to sort this out.

I appreciate your quick reply; I continued with the game as advised.

And, in an effort to be helpful both then and now, I tried searching to see if I could find anything from Rustan or the other designers which would indicate one way or the other whether this is a design decision. Unfortunately, I came up empty both times ("nations a side" and similar searches are too broad, even qualified with "rustan").

Anyway, in the absence of any further comment from Rustan or the others, I still maintain that for just the base game, it would correct from the rules themselves that choosing an A-side should remove a B-side from the pool of choices for remaining players.

Quote:
Also, I think that implementing the rule as you suggest would be awkward and counter-intuitive here online. I have a list of boards to choose and I select the Side-A: why on earth should I now remove one of the others?? It makes sense only in the context of the double-sided physical boards.

I will grant that it would not make thematic sense; I believe it would only make sense from the perspective of maintaining the rules of the game, whether played in person or online.
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rustan



Joined: Dec 03, 2016
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

It is the intention that as each player chooses, one of the available boards is removed. This is true even for choosing a-sides. If this is a difficult thing to code it is an acceptable variation of the online game to me, but would be very helpful if it was stated clearly together with the a-side choice that no b-side will be removed. Choosing what b-side to negate when choosing an a-side is a consequence of allowing a-sides as a choice, not an important part of the design.

For dynasties the pairing is a production cost issue. Given that the pairing needed to be done we chose carefully which ones to pair, so that the ones that would be most directly counteracting each other were paired. But for the online implementation it is fine to allow all selections.

/Rustan
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MaBi
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Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 864
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, thank you Rustan!
I think I will modify the board selection to replicate the physical game: N boards (one per player) and you can choose one, side-A or side-B, either case that board will be removed.
For the 6-player variant, in accordance with the design intent of removing a board after each player choice, there will be all 6 boards at the beginning but every choice will remove a board (now side-a is always available and never removed).
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MaBi
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Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 864
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I have changed the board selection: now for every Nation you can choose Side-A or Side-B and in either case that Nation will no longer be available to following players.
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tanstaafl



Joined: Jan 04, 2017
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent. Thank you Mabi. Smile
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B_Factor



Joined: Jan 21, 2017
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Rustan, for taking time to confirm the designers' intent.

Thanks also to you, MaBi, for the quick update to the implementation.
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