Username: Password:
  Create an account Home  ·  Game Manager  ·  Forums  ·  Your Account  
Login
Username

Password

Don't have an account yet? You can create one.

Site Sections
· Home
· Game Manager
· Forums
· Private Messages
· Your Account

Game Manager
· Your games
· Waiting games
· Create new game
· Running games
· Completed games

Recent News

MaBiWeb: Forums

MaBiWeb :: View topic - Bug with the Church Influence & Gray Eminence?
 Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Bug with the Church Influence & Gray Eminence?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MaBiWeb Forum Index -> In the Shadow of the Emperor
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ladislaus



Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Bug with the Church Influence & Gray Eminence? Reply with quote

In the Shadow of the Emperor Game ID=3901, Round: 3, Phase: Game phase VI (Emperor election)

Trier Electorate
YELLOW: Elector (Baron-25), Aristocrat (Couple-15), & Gray Eminence (Baron-45)

If Yellow plays the Church Influence card (during Phase VI) on the Trier Electorate, shouldn't the Gray Eminence provide 1 additional vote (for/against the Emperor) for Yellow?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MaBi
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 919
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, technically this is not a bug, in the sense that I did consider this case and reasoned that no, Gray Eminence shouldn't provide an additional vote. I think it's there only to give 1 more power point during phase V and it stays there until the following 'aging' phase only for convenience (when all 45 Barons are removed at the same time).
But I could be wrong of course, I guess that only the designer could give the true interpretation of the rules in this case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ekted



Joined: Feb 15, 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/67456
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MaBi
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 919
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I already knew that Jay Tummelson's opinion differs from mine (I have read all threads in the Rules forum at BGG). So we are 1-1 now, and the case is still undecided. Should we start a poll? :)

Anyway, if you look at my postings on Shadow Emperor Rules Forum at BGG, all my other doubts turned out to be against geeks common wisdom, so I'm already prepared to change the code :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ladislaus



Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ekted wrote:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/67456


Thanks, ekted. That was my understanding as well. According to this clarification from the US game publisher, the Gray Eminence does provide 1 additional vote if present in a spiritual electorate where the Church Influence card has been played.

MaBi: I'm just bringing your attention to the rules as they are currently being used by the community. If you decide not to implement this, then you should probably make it clear in the game itself as well as in any game documentation that you provide.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MaBi
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 919
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ladislaus wrote:
I'm just bringing your attention to the rules as they are currently being used by the community. If you decide not to implement this, then you should probably make it clear in the game itself as well as in any game documentation that you provide.

If there is a general agreement about this, I certainly don't want to implement something different, it would only generate unnecessary confusion.
Does anyone know whether Hans-im-Gluck made a statement on this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mrbass



Joined: Apr 18, 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still researching this but in the meantime check this huge discrepancy out.

In the English rules (Rio Grande Edition on page 7) it says regarding in the Gray eminence card:
blah blah blah... This Baron can become either an elector or the Emperor.

now cruise over to here
http://www.europemasters.org/rules_clarification.htm
specifically this translated rules
http://www.europemasters.org/shadowoftheemperor.pdf

and regarding Gray eminence card:
blah blah blah...This Baron can never become a Sovereign or Emperor.

ok also in the English FAQ 1.0
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fileinfo.php?fileid=10674
It also says this regarding Gray eminence card
"The 45 year-old aristocrat temporarily placed for this card can become neither the elector nor the emperor and is removed from the board upon the Aging phase of the next round."

And this German guy who has the German rules says it can NOT
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/472304#472304

ok sorry guess this has been covered before...sorry it was just new to me.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/474691#474691
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MaBi
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 919
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbass wrote:
In the English rules (Rio Grande Edition on page 7) it says regarding in the Gray eminence card:
blah blah blah... This Baron can become either an elector or the Emperor.

This is a well known error in the RGG translation. German rules are very clear on this point: "Dieser Baron kann weder Kurfurst noch Kaiser werden".

mrbass wrote:
now cruise over to here
http://www.europemasters.org/rules_clarification.htm

Thank you for this link, previously unknown to me. It looks like a summary of the 'german' (HIG?) clarifications.

Current implementation is not compliant with all of them, I will have to fix the following:

- If a player has no action cards at all, he will get no descendants.

- Placing a new emperor: "You first take one of your aristocrats, not an Elector. If this is not possible, you take one of your Electors. If this is not possible you take a baron from your stock".
(Actually this seems more of a rule change than a clarification, could be a lot confusing).

- Removing the emperor after losing the vote. The player of the old emperor may choose a province. If there is no place in the province the old emperor goes back in the pool.

Edit: on second thought, maybe these clarifications can be considered more as something specific for that tournament rather than an official FAQ. Especially the last 2 points above are probably too different than published rules, and implementing them is not a good idea.

(What a mess...)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Marvinrah



Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get discouraged. Your online implementation is instrumental in fixing the two major deficiencies of this great game: underexposure and unclear special cases. The formalization of rules you are going through is going to yield a solid and stable set of interpretations of the all these special cases. It is a burden, but it will improve the game, both online and off.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ekted



Joined: Feb 15, 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marvinrah wrote:
Don't get discouraged. Your online implementation is instrumental in fixing the two major deficiencies of this great game: underexposure and unclear special cases. The formalization of rules you are going through is going to yield a solid and stable set of interpretations of the all these special cases. It is a burden, but it will improve the game, both online and off.


Well said.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ElBurro



Joined: Nov 24, 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"- Placing a new emperor: "You first take one of your aristocrats, not an Elector. If this is not possible, you take one of your Electors. If this is not possible you take a baron from your stock".
(Actually this seems more of a rule change than a clarification, could be a lot confusing).

- Removing the emperor after losing the vote. The player of the old emperor may choose a province. If there is no place in the province the old emperor goes back in the pool. "

Those rules are an exact translation of the german rules as available on BGG. I do not own the offline version, and didn't find any official FAQ on the HiG-Site. But as long as the german rules posted on BGG are still official, there can be no doubt as to their interpretation. Those tournament rules do not state anything that differs from the official german rules.


"• Hat der Gegenkaiser mehr Stimmen, so wird er sofort neuer Kaiser, nimmt sich den Kaiserstein und setzt einen eigenen
Adligen (Baron oder Paar) vom Spielplan auf den Kaiserthron.
Er darf nur dann einen Kurfürsten nehmen, wenn er sonst
keinen Baron hat. (He may only chose an elector if he doesn't have any other aristocrat) Hat er keinen entsprechenden Adligen auf dem Spielplan, muss er einen Baron mit Alter 45 aus seinem
Vorrat auf den Kaiserthron setzen.
• Der verdrängte Kaiser wird dann vom Kaiserthron entfernt und auf ein freies Adelsfeld eines beliebigen Kurfürstentums
gesetzt (nach Wahl des Spielers, dem der abgesetzte Kaiser gehört). Verdrängen von Rittern auf Adelsfeldern ist auch hier
möglich, aber nur, wenn kein Adelsfeld in dem gewählten Kurfürstentum frei ist" (Page 5)


If you need a more explicit translation, I'm willing to help.

Jan (living right now in...Mainz. Sadly, this once glorious town, while still beautiful, has become almost completely insignificant ;)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MaBi
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 919
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElBurro wrote:
Those rules are an exact translation of the german rules as available on BGG. I do not own the offline version, and didn't find any official FAQ on the HiG-Site. But as long as the german rules posted on BGG are still official, there can be no doubt as to their interpretation. Those tournament rules do not state anything that differs from the official german rules.

Thanks Jan, that's interesting to know.
I'm currently finishing the new game, and plan to get the beta going quite soon, but after that I will go back to Shadow and try to sort out all these loose ends (included some things I still have in my to-do list, like pre-flagging of new electors).
I will check how difficult it would be to implement the changes above, and probably adopt them if it's not much work. In any case I will add to the description page a list of all rules differences/clarifications implemented in this online version (the same for the other games too).

Thanks a lot,
MaBi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MaBiWeb Forum Index -> In the Shadow of the Emperor All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Forums ©

 
MaBiWeb copyright © 2006 by MaBi
PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi.
Page Generation: 0.06 Seconds