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Dealing with Korea...

 
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kehmesis



Joined: Dec 24, 2016
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Dealing with Korea... Reply with quote

I think everyone here agrees they are by far the best Nation?

There are many strong Nations, but most are at least somewhat useful/better in certain situations/progress boards.

But not Korea. They are just greatly unbalanced.

In our playgroup, we changed its special power to 1 architect instead of 2 and they are STILL always picked first and still win most games.

It's even more frustrating on this site because when they come up everyone needs to play together to deny the wonders or Golden ages or we just lose. And still Korea has a strong board and easy access to the rest of the cards.

I'm wondering what's everyone opinion? Would it be a good idea to mess with the game's design? Or could we have an option to ban Nations?
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siegfried_cf



Joined: Jan 07, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Europe - GMT+1

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some nations are indeed stronger/weaker than others given the different difficulty and starting player board. Banning nations would be a mistake, if not for anything else, than simply for the sake of variety.. but am I now happy to see my opponents pick Korea? Certainly not.. For me, that is an extra piece of motivation to beat the Korea player, and perhaps to refute his belief, that by picking Korea, the game is decided, and everything after the nation-picking phase is just going to be a formality.
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MaBi
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 919
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a good player so I can't evaluate the relative strength of the different Nations, but I have some statistics of all 2485 games of Dynasties played so far on Mabiweb, and I can tell you that Korea is not the Nation with most victories (Rome, Japan and Persia are above Korea).
I don't know how meaningful this is, it's just an overall count of wins for each Nation, so maybe Korea has just played less games than others, but it suggests that it's not so overpowered to need a ban.
(I'm in a hurry, I will post the complete stats later when I have more time).
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Riku



Joined: Jan 30, 2017
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don´t think Korea is generally the best nation. Korea hasn´t won a single game I´ve been in. I also have a habit of browsing "Completed games" and I have seen many, many losses for Korea (and a few wins). I posted my current thoughts to kehmesis´BGG thread.
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MaBi
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 01, 2006
Posts: 919
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, these are the last statistics I have. As I said, it's just an overall count of number of wins for each board.

Base game only (without Dynasties):

Statistics for 2-players:
Total num of 2-players games: 503
Side-A: 51 (10%)
China: 62 (12%)
Egypt: 97 (19%)
Greece: 90 (18%)
Persia: 89 (18%)
Rome: 114 (23%)

Statistics for 3-players:
Total num of 3-players games: 287
Side-A: 20 (7%)
China: 33 (11%)
Egypt: 61 (21%)
Greece: 55 (19%)
Persia: 44 (15%)
Rome: 74 (26%)

Statistics for 4-players:
Total num of 4-players games: 187
Side-A: 9 (5%)
China: 14 (7%)
Egypt: 55 (29%)
Greece: 35 (19%)
Persia: 23 (12%)
Rome: 51 (27%)

Statistics for 5-players:
Total num of 5-players games: 72
Side-A: 4 (6%)
China: 5 (7%)
Egypt: 19 (26%)
Greece: 19 (26%)
Persia: 7 (10%)
Rome: 18 (25%)

Statistics for 6-players:
Total num of 6-players games: 11
Side-A: 0 (0%)
China: 0 (0%)
Egypt: 0 (0%)
Greece: 5 (45%)
Persia: 2 (18%)
Rome: 4 (36%)

Statistics for all games:
Total num of games: 1060
Side-A: 84 (8%)
China: 114 (11%)
Egypt: 232 (22%)
Greece: 204 (19%)
Persia: 165 (16%)
Rome: 261 (25%)


Dynasties expansion:

Statistics for 2-players:
Total num of 2-players games: 1433
America: 85 (6%)
Arabs: 72 (5%)
China: 86 (6%)
Egypt: 73 (5%)
Ethiopia: 87 (6%)
Greece: 98 (7%)
India: 67 (5%)
Japan: 113 (8%)
Korea: 85 (6%)
Mali: 73 (5%)
Mongolia: 75 (5%)
Persia: 96 (7%)
Poland: 62 (4%)
Portugal: 69 (5%)
Rome: 125 (9%)
Venice: 83 (6%)
Vikings: 84 (6%)

Statistics for 3-players:
Total num of 3-players games: 498
America: 30 (6%)
Arabs: 18 (4%)
China: 36 (7%)
Egypt: 30 (6%)
Ethiopia: 30 (6%)
Greece: 38 (8%)
India: 21 (4%)
Japan: 43 (9%)
Korea: 48 (10%)
Mali: 15 (3%)
Mongolia: 26 (5%)
Persia: 40 (8%)
Poland: 15 (3%)
Portugal: 31 (6%)
Rome: 34 (7%)
Venice: 19 (4%)
Vikings: 24 (5%)

Statistics for 4-players:
Total num of 4-players games: 433
America: 23 (5%)
Arabs: 26 (6%)
China: 44 (10%)
Egypt: 23 (5%)
Ethiopia: 28 (6%)
Greece: 25 (6%)
India: 20 (5%)
Japan: 30 (7%)
Korea: 41 (9%)
Mali: 18 (4%)
Mongolia: 23 (5%)
Persia: 36 (8%)
Poland: 8 (2%)
Portugal: 17 (4%)
Rome: 34 (8%)
Venice: 14 (3%)
Vikings: 23 (5%)

Statistics for 5-players:
Total num of 5-players games: 118
America: 5 (4%)
Arabs: 4 (3%)
China: 15 (13%)
Egypt: 5 (4%)
Ethiopia: 6 (5%)
Greece: 8 (7%)
India: 6 (5%)
Japan: 10 (8%)
Korea: 10 (8%)
Mali: 5 (4%)
Mongolia: 4 (3%)
Persia: 15 (13%)
Poland: 4 (3%)
Portugal: 3 (3%)
Rome: 8 (7%)
Venice: 5 (4%)
Vikings: 5 (4%)

Statistics for 6-players:
Total num of 6-players games: 23
America: 1 (4%)
Arabs: 0 (0%)
China: 1 (4%)
Egypt: 3 (13%)
Ethiopia: 1 (4%)
Greece: 2 (9%)
India: 3 (13%)
Japan: 0 (0%)
Korea: 3 (13%)
Mali: 0 (0%)
Mongolia: 1 (4%)
Persia: 2 (9%)
Poland: 1 (4%)
Portugal: 2 (9%)
Rome: 2 (9%)
Venice: 0 (0%)
Vikings: 1 (4%)

Statistics for all games:
Total num of games: 2505
America: 144 (6%)
Arabs: 120 (5%)
China: 182 (7%)
Egypt: 134 (5%)
Ethiopia: 152 (6%)
Greece: 171 (7%)
India: 117 (5%)
Japan: 196 (8%)
Korea: 187 (7%)
Mali: 111 (4%)
Mongolia: 129 (5%)
Persia: 189 (8%)
Poland: 90 (4%)
Portugal: 122 (5%)
Rome: 203 (8%)
Venice: 121 (5%)
Vikings: 137 (5%)
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Bitos



Joined: Apr 15, 2017
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting, thanks for the statistics.

Baffles my mind honestly that korea ist not clear number 1.
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kehmesis



Joined: Dec 24, 2016
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those stats are, in fact, pretty meaningless. But they still show Korea is #1.

Win % would be much more useful. But, like the player profiles, they don't take final position into account. For instance, a Nation finishing 2nd in a 6 player game has the same stats as a Nation finishing last, which makes no sense.

The best way to calculate win percentages is to treat all match ups as a 1v1 game. For instance, a 5 player game is really 4 different 1v1 games.

---

The only reason Korea isn't 1st in your stats is because of 2-player games. You can play the deny game in 2 player games, but it becomes increasingly more difficult to do the more players you add.

Total up your stats again without 2-player games and Korea is #1.

A beta tester said that Korea was one of the last Nation added to the game and that's why they are so broken. He never even got to test them.

They're broken, period. Persia is close second.
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Riku



Joined: Jan 30, 2017
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall Rustan writing after base game that he recommends A-sides & normal deck (so not even semi fancy cards from base game), if someone is planning tournament. B sides & fancy cards for variation. As seen from original game stats Rome was a beast and it was also quite well known thing. Now expansion did something to that. Other powers did get better dynasties than Rome. However a much larger group of nations inevitably had larger gap between best and the worst nation.

I don´t see Korea as a single problem. I see the problem of sperading of the pack. Now rebalancing all nations would need at least one (probably a couple) tournament with 100+ games. Also still nations can be worth very different in a single game (depending on the setup).

So the variant that I would put available:

1) Everyone starts with 1 book

2) Books at the start=#picking the nation. So in 5er 1st player get 5 books, 5th (first to pick) gets 1 book. (Variant for those who believe the gap between nations is really big)
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tanstaafl



Joined: Jan 04, 2017
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not have an auction of VPs for picking a nation. First player to drop out gets last pick second player gets 2nd last pick etcetera. So if you think Korea is that strong and others in the game agree then it will cost you to get them.
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LordChambers



Joined: Feb 05, 2017
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a reminder that if Korea is in your game, you should collectively sacrifice to hold them back. It's not very sporting when they can get Hatshepsut (+3 books when wonder ready), Sphinx (+5 stone when wonder ready), Colosseum (+3 military strength, -2 food when ready) and Krak des Chevaliers (+6 military strength).

If Korea is in your game and no one plays against them, refer them to this link as a scare tactic. 75 points as Korea
.
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Cohensius



Joined: Oct 06, 2018
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Korea and Persia over powered Reply with quote

In our gaming group both Korea and Persia are baned, wired that the win ratio on the site don't show it
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Fiann



Joined: Jun 13, 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We played today and the final ranking was:
1. China
2. Ethiopia
3. Portugal
4. Korea (without chance to win)
5. Mongolia
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Cohensius



Joined: Oct 06, 2018
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fiann wrote:
We played today and the final ranking was:
1. China
2. Ethiopia
3. Portugal
4. Korea (without chance to win)
5. Mongolia



Are all expirenced players? In our games Korea never lose
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Fiann



Joined: Jun 13, 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cohensius wrote:
Fiann wrote:
We played today and the final ranking was:
1. China
2. Ethiopia
3. Portugal
4. Korea (without chance to win)
5. Mongolia



Are all expirenced players? In our games Korea never lose


Yes - all expirened players. All have about 50% wins in games in MaBis site.
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