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[quote="Logitude"]Here's some data from the previous BGG tournament: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WG5yJZODzcl8gf0oPl5Ijw0kkQvI_qcD2GSvK_PoD8o/edit#gid=1760889923 Some things to keep in mind are that these are all 4-player games, and there's one rule change, which is that Korea's starting ability only grants it one architect per golden age, not two. I mostly agree with what the stats show. Persia is very strong. Korea without the nerf is also very strong. Mali and America are quite weak. The one I disagree with most is Poland. I think it's stronger than its showing in the tournament would suggest. I'm not the greatest player or anything though, and still fairly new to the game.[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Logitude</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:18 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Logitude wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I mostly agree with what the stats show. Persia is very strong. Korea without the nerf is also very strong. Mali and America are quite weak. The one I disagree with most is Poland. I think it's stronger than its showing in the tournament would suggest. I'm not the greatest player or anything though, and still fairly new to the game.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I've been keeping stats of tournment matches since this. I recently updated my stats and ran my analysis script again, and I remembered back to when I posted this. <br /> <br />As good as Poland maybe seems like it should be, it's empirically bottom of the barrel. Like worse than Mali and Arabs bad. At least for 4 player, which is what all my stats are for. <br /> <br />And I don't think Persia is particularly strong in 4 player either. I think it's actually a relatively overrated nation at 4. I think it is quite strong at 3 though because there's more turmoil/player each round. And America can be pretty decent. <br /> <br />Here's a BGG post where I link to my GitHub repo with the analysis scripts and logs: <br /> <br /><a href="https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2966028/article/41113061#41113061" target="_blank">https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2966028/article/41113061#41113061</a> <br /> <br />In my experience now though, while nation selection can have a big influence, the player is the biggest factor, even among regular tournament players at or near the top tier. I think that's a testament to the game design. It's far from perfectly balanced, but it's good enough.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Mwak</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:14 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>LordChambers wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Logitude wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">LordChambers, will you explain the tables on the right of the Season 3 stats sheet? What do the 3’s and 4’s mean under Sun Tzu and Sphinx?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />No, because I don't understand myself. This is the work of siegfried_cf. He can elaborate.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />I believe it works as follows. <br />With this table : <br /><a href="https://i.imgur.com/ETFqVmy.png" target="_blank">https://i.imgur.com/ETFqVmy.png</a> <br /> <br />It means that in Main and Open Divisions combined, 5 people who finished the game 2nd picked Sun Tzu. <br />Among these players, two were the first to go on first round (we can assume they picked Sun Tzu first thing), one was second to go on the first round, and two were 3rd to go. <br /> <br />I am surprised noone who picked Sun Tzu won the game during S3. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Sten wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Can you explain the spreadsheet? Is it saying that no one who took SunTsu came first, and if you took the Sphinx, you only won if you were the third or fourth player?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Noone who took Sun Tzu came first indeed. But your logic for the Sphinx is backwards. It's not that the Sphinx is somehow better for 3rd or 4th player, but that picking it first thing as if it was a top priority wonder may actually hurt someone, especially with a more aggro board.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>LordChambers</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:00 am<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Logitude wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">LordChambers, will you explain the tables on the right of the Season 3 stats sheet? What do the 3’s and 4’s mean under Sun Tzu and Sphinx?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />No, because I don't understand myself. This is the work of siegfried_cf. He can elaborate.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Logitude</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:44 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">LordChambers, will you explain the tables on the right of the Season 3 stats sheet? What do the 3’s and 4’s mean under Sun Tzu and Sphinx? <br /> <br />My guess is that “4†means 4th choice of nation, thus first to act during the action phase, not 4th in initial turn order. Just a guess though. <br /> <br />This season, in one of the matches where I had last choice of nation, I took Sphinx with my first action and won with an 8-point lead, I think in large part because Sphinx: <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.mabiweb.com/modules.php?name=GM_Nations&g_id=79964&op=view_game_reset" target="_blank">http://www.mabiweb.com/modules.php?name=GM_Nations&g_id=79964&op=view_game_reset</a></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Sten</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:05 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">[quote="Logitude"]Here's some data from the previous BGG tournament: <br /> <br /><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WG5yJZODzcl8gf0oPl5Ijw0kkQvI_qcD2GSvK_PoD8o/edit#gid=1760889923" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WG5yJZODzcl8gf0oPl5Ijw0kkQvI_qcD2GSvK_PoD8o/edit#gid=1760889923</a> <br /> <br />Can you explain the spreadsheet? Is it saying that no one who took SunTsu came first, and if you took the Sphinx, you only won if you were the third or fourth player?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Riku</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue May 12, 2020 10:10 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">America is far more powerful in 5er than in 4er, because Democratic Republicans hit in basic situation 2 persons (so the action is twice as good), there is more dynasties to affect (I mean more players means more opportunities) and books give more points. Just to say that player count and difficulty level affect quite much to nations powers.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Logitude</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue May 12, 2020 6:44 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Here's some data from the previous BGG tournament: <br /> <br /><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WG5yJZODzcl8gf0oPl5Ijw0kkQvI_qcD2GSvK_PoD8o/edit#gid=1760889923" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WG5yJZODzcl8gf0oPl5Ijw0kkQvI_qcD2GSvK_PoD8o/edit#gid=1760889923</a> <br /> <br />Some things to keep in mind are that these are all 4-player games, and there's one rule change, which is that Korea's starting ability only grants it one architect per golden age, not two. <br /> <br />I mostly agree with what the stats show. Persia is very strong. Korea without the nerf is also very strong. Mali and America are quite weak. The one I disagree with most is Poland. I think it's stronger than its showing in the tournament would suggest. I'm not the greatest player or anything though, and still fairly new to the game.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Riku</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 10:16 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I play mostly 5ers. Here is my strong and weak nations in vacuum: <br /> <br />Strong: <br />1. Rome <br />2. China <br />3. America <br />4. Greece <br />5. Persia <br /> <br />Weak: <br />1. Mali <br />2. Arabs <br />3. Portugal <br />4. Vikings <br />5. Ethiopia</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Narcissus1</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 3:22 pm<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Best nations to choose including dynasties</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">What do you guys are the best nations to choose? <br />Of course the board matters, but let us just discuss the nations on their own. <br />My top 5 is: <br />1. Rome <br />2. Japan <br />3. Persia <br />4. Mongolia <br />5. Egypt <br /> <br />Bottom 5: <br />1. Portugal <br />2. Greece <br />3. Vikings <br />4. China <br />5. Poland</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="modules/Forums/templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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